The One With Michelle Rowlinson

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:00:32]:
Hello. Hello. Welcome back. Welcome back to another episode. Yes. It’s another guest episode. And my guest this week is Michelle Rowlinson. Now Michelle, she’s all about driving success through menopause awareness.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:00:45]:
Now this is for women and business and health professionals, but this episode isn’t only gonna be of interest to women. Men, we all have women in our lives in various capacities. The more we can understand about, what’s going on for them, the better able we can be to be there to be there for them when, when they need you or at least understand what’s happening for them. Michelle is all about reducing absenteeism, which is about empowering women and maximising workplace productivity. That’s my guest today, Michelle. Hey, Michelle. How are you doing?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:01:16]:
I’m good. Thank you. How are you?

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:01:18]:
I’m very well. Thanks. And I’m really pleased to to have you on here. I know I’m gonna learn a a fair few things here, and hopefully, listeners and viewers will also learn some things as well. Blakemore we dive in, we’ve heard your bio, but who is Michelle? Who’s the lady behind it all?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:01:34]:
Oh, good question. Good question. So, I mean, what’s led me here today is, my own personal journey, of going through, many years of not understanding what was happening to me. I was you know, a third of women haven’t heard of the word perimenopause before they start experiencing symptoms. And I was one of them. But I’ve always been somebody that loves to help people. I’m a, excuse me, I’m a senior physio. And even before that, I was a a swimming teacher that enjoys helping little children to to swim.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:02:15]:
But from going through my own personal experiences, I realised just how failed women actually can be going through this natural phase of life. And it sent me on a bit of a a mission to to do something about it.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:02:30]:
Makes absolute sense. So how how long have you been how long have you been pursuing this mission?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:02:36]:
So it’s been about a year and a half that I really was when I decided to write a book, because I realised certain diets can massively reduce symptoms, but we’re just not told about these. And the book it was the book, really, that, launched last January, and I started being asked advice. So I thought, well, I better get qualified.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:03:02]:
Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:03:03]:
And, and it just spiralled from there. The more I sort of went down this this route, the more I realised that, you know, women just aren’t getting the help, and it’s a global thing, not just a a UK thing. But and then it was last year so I was already doing workshops for businesses and one to ones. But it was last year when I realised, actually, all health professionals need to have this training because not one health professional along my journey ever mentioned menopause. And even as a physio, I knew that women were more predisposed to frozen shoulder, tendinopathies, joint pain, and my treatments had helped them, but I didn’t realise it was actually you know, I wasn’t treating the cause that I look back now and I can think of many women that used to say things like, oh, I feel like I’m falling apart. This is happening. That’s happening. And it was it’s obvious to me now that they were, you know, perimenopausal, menopausal, but just not being having the right advice.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:04:05]:
Got it. Got it. You mentioned your book there. What was the name of the book? Where can people find it? It’s

Michelle Rowlinson [00:04:09]:
called You Me Conquering Perimenopause and Menopause. So it’s on Amazon.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:04:15]:
Oh, nice.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:04:17]:
So, yeah. And it’s got recipes, advice, all sorts in there to make it really easy.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:04:24]:
Brilliant. Obviously, we’re gonna pop a link to where you can get that. We’re gonna pop a link to that in the show notes. So if you didn’t get a note of it, don’t worry. Just check the show notes. You’ll find them as always. Noble, and look for the one with Michelle Rawlinson. I have a link direct link to the book, well worth checking out.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:04:42]:
Now you mentioned 2 terms 2 terms there. I wanna explore both of them, menopause and perimenopause. So let let’s start with menopause, which is the one most people will will have heard of. Now I know there’s all sorts of myths and all sorts of, stories and so on about it. What what is menopause? Fundamentally, what is it? And, what’s what’s happening to to to women as as they go through it?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:05:10]:
Yeah. So menopause is when, a lady has gone 12 consecutive months, without a period. And it’s the time when we become non-reproductive, so we’re no longer able to, to have children.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:05:25]:
Mhmm.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:05:26]:
And it’s when oestrogen, has declined and is, at this point, a little bit more stable than when, it’s we’re in perimenopause. But yes. So it’s when, we ironically, we actually experience more symptoms during perimenopause even though we’ve heard more about menopause. But, yes, the menopause is when we’re basically sort of the body has now gone into, no longer being reproductive.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:05:53]:
Right. Okay. So is is menopause so what once you go into menopause, are you in menopause for the rest of your life or do you then transition into another?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:06:03]:
So, basically, menopause is just a day. And then we when we’ve gone 12 consecutive months and a day without a period, we are then in post-menopause, and that’s where we then, are for the the rest of our lives. A lot of women 4, 5 years into post-menopause, will start not having as many symptoms or things because eastern is then Noble, and declined. However, some women symptoms may come back. Some women, they may continue, often less intense, but the myth is that we’re past it. You know, as I say, some women are lucky and, I mean, some women, they’ll sail through the whole thing and barely have even one symptom. Other women can be really debilitating. So it’s important to know that it’s different for everyone.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:06:52]:
It’s very personalised. So that’s why our our care should be very personalised.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:06:58]:
Makes sense. Makes sense. And, just to clarify there, I mean, you alluded some people, it seems to happen fairly quickly. Some people, symptoms can last for a long time. Is there is there a I and I appreciate everyone is different. Mhmm. Is there a kind of a rough guide? It’s typically this to this long, or is it really just

Michelle Rowlinson [00:07:19]:
So the problem is so perimenopause that we mentioned, that’s the transitional phase leading up to menopause. So it’s when the body is preparing, going from reproductive to non reproductive. And this can last anywhere from sort of a year to up to 10 years, arguably even slightly longer. So, you know, some women, it it’s it’s just very, very different. And that’s the important thing to know is that perimenopause itself can last quite a number of years, and has you know, we’ve we’ve got eastern receptors virtually in everything. So virtually everything, you know, can be affected. But, you know, like I say, some women sail through. Other women, you know, it’s it’s psychological as well as physical symptoms.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:08:05]:
Right. Okay. So, yeah, you I mean, you mentioned the perimenopause perimenopause, which is kinda like the the run up, the lead up to to menopause. So menopause is the 12 months and one day of no, no ovulation, no, no, no periods. Perimenopause then is when the oestrogen levels are starting to run down, is it? And you’re probably starting to prepare for that?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:08:31]:
They’re declining, but equally, your hormones are fluctuating up and down. I mean, oestrogen can soar up to nearly 3 times the level it would be in your younger years only to sort of then crash to sort of almost nothing. And this can happen over and over month after month, and it’s what I sort of call the roller the perimenopause roller coaster, which is why women can have quite erratic, quite intense symptoms during perimenopause.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:08:59]:
Right. Yeah. That makes sense. Because I guess the body is, I suppose, starting to run out as it were of oestrogen and and things go go a bit wild as as would happen when you start to run out in anything, I guess. Yes. So one question I mean, we we often talk about, the symptoms of the menopause. Which which are the is it mostly menopause that say I won’t say problem, but mostly menopause where you have symptoms. Is it mostly perimenopause? Is it a mixture of them?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:09:32]:
I mean, obviously, women can have symptoms in any of the stages, but, perimenopause is when actually women tend to get, you know, more more symptoms, more erratic symptoms. Periods, is when start to change, but not the problem is, and this is where sometimes women are told they’re not perimenopausal by doctors, is it can be even be the slightest of change to the to the period or some women, actually, that’s not one of their first symptoms. So they can become heavier, lighter, shorter, longer. You know, it’s it it can be, quite it’s you know, again, not all women have hot flushes, and they’re told, oh, if you’re not having hot flushes, you’re not perimenopausal. We’re all different and this is this is where we need to understand this that there’s no one fits all whether that’s for treatment or whether that’s with symptoms that, you know, we’re all very, very different.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:10:27]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So is there, and, again, appreciating that everybody is different, and that that is that’s an important lesson for for for everything in life, but especially for something like this. Everybody is different. Is there a guide to an age range where onset of perimenopause is likely to start, or is it just huge range?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:10:54]:
Again, this is where some of the myths are when we’re often told we’re too young. There’s no such thing as too young. The average age for perimenopause to start is in your forties. Right. However, it’s more common than you think in your thirties. I was 32, arguably slightly younger when, when mine started. I do get ladies, you know, late twenties, thirties, late thirties, you know, coming to me. But, equally, you can be older.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:11:23]:
You know, I’ve known I’ve had women come to me, you know, almost 60 saying, when is this gonna start? Because I’ve got no signs, no symptoms. I’m still having my periods regularly. You know? What’s going on? So, you know, it’s it’s simply it’s when our body is ready to to to to do it, to go through the phase.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:11:44]:
Yeah. Makes sense. So it’s it’s broadly, it’s the forties, but it could be

Michelle Rowlinson [00:11:48]:
Yeah. It could be younger, it could be later, but it’s it’s more common in your in your sort of early to mid forties that peri will start.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:11:57]:
Gotcha. Now we’ve we’ve heard the euphemism going through the change. So from from what you’ve been from what you’ve been saying, would that mean that perimenopause is is is really the change and then menopause is sort of settling into the new the new me or

Michelle Rowlinson [00:12:19]:
I mean, obviously, the term the the change is is probably more aimed at when you’re no longer able to have children. Mhmm. So that would be more sort of menopause, post-menopause. But, you know, our body is actually changing when we when we start perimenopause. You know, that’s when our hormones are changing, and decline starting to decline. So, yeah, it’s probably I would probably more define the change, so to speak, is when we we start transitioning, into menopause.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:12:54]:
Yeah. Okay. That that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. And it also highlights the the the absurdity of of using euphemisms for for these sorts of things instead of just being open and honest and and using the real terms that that way people know what’s going on.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:13:09]:
Yeah. And I suppose you can also say the changes where, you know, it it doesn’t have to be, you know, a bad thing. We all think that, you know, menopause is is bad, but, actually, we become much more sort of wiser and and stronger once we’ve sort of, you know, our brain sort of recalibrate, so to speak. You know, once we’re you know, things are normal, and and that’s why often, you know, you’ll find that we’ll, yeah, just sort of become like, you know, this new strong, you know, woman. So, but it’s just understanding that, you know, we don’t have to suffer. You know, there’s there’s many things whether that’s, you know, through HRTs, there’s diets, there’s lifestyle, you know, changes that can that can really, really help. And it’s just having that understanding of the different types of of HRTs. There’s been many myths out there.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:14:01]:
You know, it’s knowing the the benefits, and the risks, And there’s there’s many long term benefits from taking, HRT in early menopause, like cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, as well as short term, as well. So, yeah, there’s lots that you you can sort of look at.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:14:21]:
Yeah. Okay. So let’s have a look at, some of the some of the the the treatments and some of the ways you can we can help. Just a moment. Just before we do, what were I mean, we we we touched on some of the symptoms, and I from what you’ve been saying, there’s a much wider range than perhaps many people appreciate or realise. What are the sorts of symptoms, that one could look out for for for menopause? Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:14:49]:
Gosh. I mean, some of the more obvious ones are sort of night sweats, hot flashes, insomnia. And often, it’s not just a we all think of insomnia as not being able to go to sleep. It’s actually really common that we’ll wake up at, like, 3 in the morning, and that’s it. We just can’t go back to sleep. So, yeah, it’s, that’s quite a common one. Things like heart palpitations, I’ll read off some of the ones that I was getting. So acne, hair falling out, weight gain, particularly around the middle, is quite a common one.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:15:30]:
Gum issues. We we off we get free dental care when we’re pregnant because we’re more likely to have gum issues and lose our teeth when, actually, it’s the same hormones going on and, it’s quite common actually for women to have sort of gum issues. All of these symptoms, obviously, you should always check to rule out, you know, any other causes. So I always sort of say that because things like, metallic taste, on in your mouth or burning tongue, which obviously can be other conditions. It’s things to to rule out. Brain fog, memory loss, mood swings, anxiety attacks. I used to have crippling anxiety attacks. I write about it in my book where I I literally had to run out the supermarket, excuse me, because I was worried I was getting the wrong cereal.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:16:18]:
You know, you laugh about it now but it’s, you know

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:16:21]:
Yeah. At the time.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:16:22]:
You know, at the time, it was really scary. Yeah. Lots. There’s so many sort of itchy ear. That was one that my TikTok went nuts when I sort of mentioned itchy ear, and lots of women were like, yes. I’m told it’s nothing to do with the Metabolic. But it’s just where the skin, is higher and less elastic and changing, so that’s why. But, yeah, lots.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:16:43]:
There’s so many, so many symptoms that, sort of digestive as well. Yeah. You could sort of basically, yeast receptors are, as I mentioned, you know, virtually in everything. So, virtually, dry, gritty eyes was another one that I used to get a lot.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:16:59]:
Goodness me. Yeah. So a a huge range of symptoms as you say. And, of course, just having one one or 2 of those symptoms doesn’t necessarily mean you’re entering perimenopause, but a group of

Michelle Rowlinson [00:17:10]:
them can be a

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:17:11]:
sign that this is yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:17:13]:
So I often advise, you know, journal your simp don’t fixate, but journal your symptoms if you’re planning to go to the doctor. Because, you know, if you could I mean, I I was guilty of it. I just sort of piecemeal 1 by 1. So I was just sort

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:17:28]:
of told I was depressed or told this or told that.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:17:28]:
So, if you go with, like,

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:17:39]:
That makes sense, I guess. Yeah. Especially the ETA show that have so little time for

Michelle Rowlinson [00:17:43]:
Oh, I certainly.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:17:43]:
Consultation. So the the better prepared you can be with with the Yes.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:17:47]:
Definitely.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:17:48]:
Here’s my symptoms. Here’s a diary of it.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:17:51]:
Definitely. And if you think, you know, if you’re not being sort of listened to so as such or maybe you’re being told you’re too young, take some literature with you, on perimenopause with age and things like that. Journal definitely. If you’re 45 and over, nice guidelines, will state that, you know, you can go by symptoms rather than, blood test, because, unfortunately because our hormones are fluctuating

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:18:19]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:18:20]:
It means that the blood test often can come back as normal, so to speak, when actually we are in peri. So it’s, that’s one of the other, problems with with the blood tests. They’re more accurate actually later in life when things are stable when actually we no longer need the blood tests.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:18:38]:
Yes. So Yes. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. As you say, if everything is fluctuating wildly and shifting all over, then the blood test is just a snapshot of that particular moment in time. So

Michelle Rowlinson [00:18:49]:
Exactly. But they are you know, obviously, they have their place to to rule everything else out and things as well. So

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:18:55]:
Very clear. Very good point. Yeah. Okay. So what’s, what can be done to to to treat the the the symptoms and and to alleviate things and make life a little bit more bearable.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:19:07]:
Yeah. So, obviously, you know, we have HRTs. Not everybody can have them, but, we’ve got the oral HRT. That’s the one that we sort of, was was used in the trials, but equally, it still has a, you know, a low risk, but it has more contraindications than the transdermal ones that go through the skin. So things like if you’ve got a history of blood clots, or, blood pressure or obese, things like that. But, the transdermal ones, most the majority of women are able to, but then, you know, obviously, this is very personalised. Some may not. But, with the HRTs they don’t go through the liver.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:19:54]:
Sorry. With the transdermal ones they don’t go through the liver. So there’s much less sort of contraindications.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:20:00]:
Alright. Right. Yeah. Now what what HRT hormone replacement, is that replacing the oestrogen or is it different hormones or

Michelle Rowlinson [00:20:07]:
Oestrogen progesterone. Yes. So for women that have a have a uterus, so they haven’t had a hysterectomy, it’s very important that they do take the progesterone as well because it helps, take the lining of the of the uterus, so it prevents things like uterine cancer. So, some women that’s why I always like to mention that because some women can be a little bit sensitive to the or intolerant to, progesterone. They sometimes won’t tell their doctor and they’ll just not take it. But there’s so it’s important to know that there’s different types of progesterone. So, you know, whether that’s in the combined patch or whether that’s the body identical eugigestion. So there’s there’s lots of and that’s the thing with with HRT.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:20:48]:
Again, it’s no one fits all. Our skin absorbs differently. So some women might not absorb the patch well or the patch might not stick. Again, there’s different brands of patch. So some women might get an irritation to the skin, whereas there’s different ingredients and different glues, so it’s trying different brands, different doses. So many women, they’ll just try it once and go, oh, it didn’t work for me, but it can be quite a trial and error both with dose and with type, whether that’s gel, whether that’s spray, whether that’s patch, whether that’s, the oral. And there’s also local ones if you’re particularly if you’re having problems with vaginal dryness, painful sex, things like that. So, 20% of women often need, the localised type, but often go up to, like, 3 years without even talking to their doctor because they’re quite embarrassed, particularly if they’re sort of, you know, if there’s more sort of personal issues going on.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:21:50]:
Sure. Sure. Yeah. I guess, common theme that’s come through there when, a few times is be open with your doctor, talk with your doctor because they can’t help if they don’t know what’s what’s what’s going on.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:22:04]:
Definitely. And and if you think you have got, you know, a lot to say

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:22:08]:
Mhmm.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:22:08]:
Ask to book a double appointment because, you know, there’s only so much they can do in 10 minutes. And

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:22:14]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:22:16]:
Yeah. Just having that. And ask your surgery if they’ve actually got a women’s health trained, GP as well. Because then, you know, some surgeries will have some some that are more trained in women’s health, so you’ll be able to have sort of better, discussions, as well.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:22:32]:
That makes sense. Makes sense. Just to round thing off, round things off. One of these days I learn how to speak. Just to round things off. Looking at it from the other from the other side, from the, men’s perspective, what can we do? How can we help and support the ladies in our lives who may be experiencing this, starting to experience, or going through it, or may not even realize that they are going through it? What what Yeah. Can we be supportive?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:22:58]:
I mean, I do actually get quite a few guys come to me saying, oh, I’ve seen your your Facebook videos or your TikTok reels and things like that and saying, oh, I think my my wife’s perimenopausal. You know, but, how do I broach the subject or or things? Because you don’t always get hormones. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s just being there and listening, not reacting when perhaps she’s, you know because one of the symptoms can be rage, and it’s weird. It’s like you have this little voice in the back of your head saying you’re out of order, but you just can’t stop until that’s finished. So and I know it it’s it sounds a bit you know, but just sort of try and sort of just step back. Don’t say things like, oh, it’s your hormones or because you’ll just enrage them.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:23:46]:
Yeah. That’s not gonna help at all. No.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:23:48]:
You know, just when she’s calmed down, having you know, saying, can we have a chat? You know, how are you? What and ask her. Have a conversation about, you know, what can I do? What, you know, what would you like me to do? What how can I support you? And just, you know, having open conversations is probably the best. You know, spotting the side my other half knows when, you know, if I’m being a little bit hormonal and he’ll just, you know, either walk out the room or, you know, not not in that kind of way, but or he’ll we we sort of have a code between us.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:24:20]:
Yeah. Just back back away and give you the space. And

Michelle Rowlinson [00:24:23]:
he’ll just sort of of give me that look and I’ll be like, mhmm. And, and then he’ll sort of pop his head back in and be like, you alright? Like so, so yeah. So it’s just having open conversations. But, again, it’s it’s the same. It’s no one fits all, you know. Some women might not want, you know, to do you know, to talk at that at that point or other women might be like, can I just have a cuddle now and, you know, and then we’ll talk later? So

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:24:50]:
just being Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a that’s a, a very interesting point there that you mentioned sometimes when you’re in a rage and you know that you shouldn’t be, but you just can’t stop. And I think that’s a very good Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:25:06]:
And then you go through the guilt and the upset afterwards going, I’m really sorry, you know. So it’s, you know and sometimes we just and and it’s it’s not an excuse. We just generally if you’re in that tunnel vision

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:25:17]:
Mhmm. Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:25:18]:
It’s it’s really hard to to snap out. And, again, sometimes having, you know, that code code word or something, that might be able to sort of snap you out of it, so to speak. But other times, it just might be that just, you know, walk away. Let her calm down herself and then because once we’ve calmed down, it is its remorse. It’s like, oh god. I’m really sorry or

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:25:41]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:25:42]:
You know?

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:25:43]:
So it is recognising that that, okay. Yes. What what

Michelle Rowlinson [00:25:46]:
Just so yeah.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:25:47]:
Happening at the moment is irrational. But she knows it’s irrational. She can’t do anything about it. Give her the space to let it out and then have a constructive conversation about it afterwards, but you can’t in in in the throes of it because if you could, then she wouldn’t be going through that anyway in the first place. Yeah. Michelle, thank you so much. That that’s been a real education for me. I’m hoping it’s been an education both for the for the ladies and for the gentlemen who who are listening to, to this episode.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:26:17]:
If people wanna find out a bit more, and maybe even get in touch with you, find out a Blakemore more about menopause, perimenopause, all these sorts of things, what’s the best way for them to do that?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:26:28]:
Yeah. So probably my my website, so panacea pause dotco.uk, where you can either write me a message, and I’ll get an email, and I’ll give you a callback. Or, yeah, or I can just book a call, We can have a chat. So I do free consultation. So we can just have a chat whether that’s for 1 to 1, for a business workshop, or to inquire about, my health professionals, CBD courses coming out very soon.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:27:00]:
Nice. Nice one. So that’s, what was the what was the website name again?

Michelle Rowlinson [00:27:06]:
Panacea Paws. So p a n a e c e a pause, pause.co.uk.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:27:14]:
Panacea.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:27:15]:
Panacea is the goddess of healing.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:27:18]:
Right. That’s where

Michelle Rowlinson [00:27:19]:
I got the name.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:27:20]:
Love it. So, yeah, do check out panacea pause.co.uk. Because Michelle has has other links to TikTok that that she she’s mentioned. She got a book out. She also wants some of the other socials. All the links for all of that will be in the show notes as always. Keith Blakemore Noble, and look for the one with, Michelle Robinson. But do check out panaceapaws.co.uk.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:27:48]:
Michelle, thank you so much for taking time out to to to share, share your knowledge and experience with us. It’s it has been very, very, interesting and illuminating. Hopefully, hopefully, a lot of people will will have a a little bit more of an insight into into what’s going on.

Michelle Rowlinson [00:28:04]:
It’s been my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Keith Blakemore-Noble [00:28:06]:
Thank you. And thank you dear dear viewer, dear listener. Thank you for joining us. Remember, if you like this, do give us a comment, a share, a subscribe. Give us a like, a review. It all helps to to to spread the word. And I’m just gonna leave you with, Michelle’s favourite quote. You can’t give from an empty cup.